Nathaniel Veltman murder trial: A recap of week 8

WARNING: The details in this article and videos may be disturbing to some viewers

Accused of a terror-motivated attack that claimed the lives of four members of a London, Ont. Muslim family, accused Nathaniel Veltman concluded his testimony while the defence brought in their second witness, a forensic psychiatrist during the eighth week of the trial.

Here’s what you missed.

 

MONDAY, OCTOBER 23

The prosecution finished their cross-examination of Nathaniel Veltman, 22, in the ongoing murder trial taking place in Windsor, Ont. on Monday.

Over the course of his seven days testifying in his own defence, Veltman denied his actions were motivated by any political or ideological beliefs, and now denies most of what he told police less than 24 hours after the attack.

"Mr. Veltman, the only reason that your story has changed in court during this trial, versus what you told Detective Bourdeau is because it no longer feels 'worth it' anymore does it?" Crown Attorney Jennifer Moser suggested Monday.

"No that's not the case," Veltman replied.

The jury has already seen and heard Veltman tell police he struck the family to “avenge” alleged minority on white crimes that he believed were being unreported by the mainstream media.

While testifying at trial, Veltman denied much of what he told police, and called his justifications “excuses,” “loose talk,” and efforts to “shift the blame.”

He also told the jury at the last second before hitting the family, he tried to steer to the left away from them, but “it was too late.”

Moser disputed the assertion by showing the jury the tire tracks clearly going up onto the sidewalk, the fact the brake was never applied, the accelerator was depressed “100 per cent” for four seconds before impact, and that the front-end damage is heaviest on the left-hand side of Veltman’s truck.

Moser also had Veltman confirm the first time he mentioned this was on Sept. 23, 2023 in an appointment with his psychologist — 12 days after the video of the attack was shown to the jury.

"You turned to the left sir, in order to hit all five members of the family with your truck," Moser suggested to Veltman, which he vehemently denied.

"You didn't feel the need to stop to render assistance to help any of those human beings?" Moser asked.

"Obviously looking back, I should have but the shock and the horror took over," Veltman said.

Veltman continued to deny he planned the attack for months, that he wanted to send a message to the Muslim community and that he hoped to inspire others to act, which is in contrast to what he told police over two video-taped statements with London Police Service Det. Micah Bourdeau on June 7, 2021.

"I’m going to suggest that brutally murdering this beautiful family and seriously hurting and orphaning a small boy, now, to you, seems like a pointless and horrific act,” Moser said.

"I recognize it as being immoral and horrible but I'm not sure…” Veltman replied.

"The Crown suggestion sir is that because you've had nothing but time to think about what you did on June 6, 2021, you've come up with this new version to help yourself live with what you did to this family,” Moser responded.

"No, I accept whatever happens,” Veltman said.

Justice Renee Pomerance later presented the jury with two mid-trial instructions on Monday pertaining to how they are to consider the difference between Veltman’s testimony at trial versus his statements to police and his alleged statements to Dr. Julian Gojer.

Nathaniel Veltman is seen during his interview with a London Police Service detective on June 6-7, 2021 in London, Ont. (Source: Superior Court of Justice)

 

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 24

On Tuesday Veltman returned to the witness box in a Windsor, Ont. courtroom, his eighth day in testimony.

Much of the day Tuesday was spent in arguments in the absence of the jury, the content of which is subject to a publication ban.

In re-examination, his defence lawyer Christopher Hicks asked about statements Veltman made to a doctor at the Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre on June 9, 2021.

“I slowly came back to reality yesterday,” Veltman said he told the doctor. “I felt like I was in a dream.”

He also told the jury he mentioned to being “increasingly depersonalized and detached from reality.”

Pomerance gave the jury another mid-trial instruction about the difference between Veltman’s statements to police or doctors versus his testimony at trial. Statements to police — which the jury has seen — can be used as “sources of evidence as proof of what happened.”

But his statements to doctors “are not admissible for their truths,” she told the jury.

The judge then addressed the potential differences between testimony and statements.

“To the extent they are inconsistent with each other, you will consider that in determining whether and to what extent you rely on either of them in deciding the case,” Pomerance said.

She then talked about the “timing of a statement,” specifically about the Crown’s assertion Monday in their cross-examination that Veltman’s story has “evolved over time” as it relates to his state of mind.

“In assessing whether a version was just made up over time, you might consider whether Mr. Veltman made similar statements at an earlier point in time,” Pomerance told them in reference to Veltman’s testimony Tuesday.

Late Tuesday afternoon, the defence then called their second witness, Dr. Julian Gojer, a forensic psychiatrist. Hicks walked Dr. Gojer through his resume for more than 20 minutes and then the trial ended Tuesday afternoon at approximately 4 p.m.

Justice Justice Renee Pomerance, left to right, Nathaniel Veltman, defence lawyers Peter Ketcheson and Christopher Hicks attend court during Veltman's trial in Windsor, Ont., as shown in this Thursday, Oct. 12, 2023 courtroom sketch. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Alexandra Newbould

 

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 25

Gojer returned to testify on Wednesday morning after starting his qualifications on Tuesday afternoon.

Gojer is being called by Veltman's defence lawyer who asked during proceedings on Wednesday, "Who hired you to testify in this matter?"

"You did,” Gojer responded. “But even though you retained me my obligation is to the courts to be impartial, unbiased and fair to tell the truth."

Gojer told the jury he interviewed Veltman on several occasions, including while he was incarcerated in Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre, the Southwest Detention Centre and during a two-week stay at Royal Hospital in Ottawa.

"In the time that I interviewed Mr. Veltman I did not see him as psychotic," Gojer testified. “He had brief psychotic episodes in the past."

Gojer also told the jury he had a social worker and two psychologists also interview Veltman in addition to an MRI on Veltman’s brain, which came back normal.

Gojer also told the jury about the term "complex trauma" which he said is a lesser form of post-traumatic stress disorder.

He didn’t however indicate if Veltman suffers from either mental illnesses.

 

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 26

Thursday’s evidence focused on Veltman’s mental health illnesses as Gojer continued his testimony.

He interviewed Veltman on numerous occasions both in jail as well as during an in-patient visit to the Royal Ottawa Hospital.

Gojer diagnosed Veltman with obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), autism spectrum disorder (ASD), persistent depressive disorder, personality disorder and complex trauma (a lesser form of post traumatic stress disorder).

The doctor told the jury he believes Veltman developed a “trauma kind of response” to his upbringing in a strict, home-schooled household and explained, "being picked on, unable to understand why restrictions were placed on him and he had to cope with the attitude and views that his mother had."

The doctor also believes Veltman has a “distorted” world view that he was more enlightened than everyone else.

Although the doctor testified Veltman suffered from psychotic episodes, he does not believe Veltman was in a psychotic state at the time of the offences.

Gojer said these issues are all relevant to explain, "How did this person get to this point, where he killed four people and nearly killed a fifth person?" and "Did it happen in vacuum? Where did the views come from?"

A portion of Gojer's evidence is about the impact of psilocybin, a hallucinogenic commonly known as magic mushrooms, on Veltman’s mental illnesses.

Gojer told the jury that depending on how much is consumed, a psilocybin high can last “generally” for four to six hours.

The jury has previously heard evidence Veltman consumed three grams of psilocybin around 3 a.m. on June 5, 2021, the day before the attack.

He testified the affect of the drug can vary between people, based on a wide range of things.

Gojer told the jury if a person is happy when they consume the drug they might have a good “ride” but if they are sad, depressed or struggling mentally they might have a bad “trip.”

He also testified there isn’t a lot of research on how long it takes for the drug to fully leave the body, saying it could be days, weeks or months.

Veltman previously testified he felt like he was in a “dream-like state” until June 8, 2021 — two days after the attack.

 

FRIDAY, OCTOBER 27

The ongoing trial of Nathaniel Veltman did not hear evidence on Friday because a juror is sick.

"I really don't have any choice but to adjourn for the day, I'm sorry," Pomerance told the remaining 13 jurors Friday morning. She said she hopes the juror will be back Monday and if not, "We may well proceed that day in any event.”

The jury was expecting to hear more from a forensic psychiatrist who interviewed Veltman on multiple occasions since his arrest in June 2021. Gojer has already told the jury Veltman suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder, autism spectrum disorder, depression and has complex trauma.

When his evidence concluded Thursday, Gojer was explaining the impact of hallucinogenic drugs like psilocybin on a person with those kinds of mental illnesses.

The examination in chief of Gojer by defence lawyer Christopher Hicks is expected to resume Monday.

The trial did not sit on Oct. 20 because two other jurors were sick at that time.

A Windsor police officer is seen outside Superior Court on day one of the Nathaniel Veltman trial in Windsor, Ont., Tuesday, Sept.5, 2023. The trial of a man facing terror-related murder charges in the deaths of four members of a Muslim family in London, Ont., in 2021 has started in Windsor. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Dax Melmer